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Learning Dialogues - part 1

Building strong teams within any organization takes concentrated, conscious effort. Camiel Gielkens, CEO Schouten & Nelissen, recently met Mads Brinks, Managing Director of Cloetta Denmark, Northern Europe's leading confectionary company, to discuss team development strategy. These two senior executives have worked closely together in the past. During this open-hearted conversation, they reflect on their careers; their respective styles of leadership and how to encourage feedback. 

Mads, could you briefly describe Cloetta?

Mads Brinks: We were founded in 1862 and now own some of the strongest brands on Europe's confectionary market, including Cloetta, CandyKing, Red Band and Sportlife. We have seven production units in five countries and our shares are traded on Nasdaq, Stockholm.

And how about Relevance [or Schouten & Nelissen?] Camiel?

Camiel Gielkens: We help individuals, teams, and organizations to perform at their best, for the good of the people and the ecosystem around them.

Mads Brinks: I really have to practice, that sounded awesome Camiel! I must therefore add: "we believe in the power of true joy", which is Cloetta's purpose.

Camiel Gielkens: My kids refuse to eat other candy brands: only Cloetta's.

Mads Brinks, laughing: Sounds like solid parenting!

THE EARLY DAYS

What milestones on your professional journeys have most shaped your personalities?

Mads Brinks: Thinking back, there were three key moments. First, joining the army as an officer in the reserve. Second, moving to McKinsey as a consultant and third, being posted to Laos by Carlsberg as Deputy Managing Director for the famous Laotian beer brand, Beerlao. 

Camiel Gielkens: I was fortunate to start my career in strategy consulting. That was a huge foundation. And then later on in my career, I moved to China and led the Chinese section of our company. 

How did your time in the army influence your professional development Mads?

Mads Brinks: In the army I was the toughest of tough platoon commanders. We took a bunch of young guys, most of them not God's best children, and turned them into a successful unit of great soldiers. During drills it was literally me against the platoon: but when we grew to larger scale military exercises, it was me and our platoon against the world! Those guys taught me something key. Right at the end of their training, they asked me: "why didn't you tell us why you were being so hard on us? We would have understood it better". This was a mind-blowing lesson for me. Only then did I realize I should have told them about the purpose from day one. 

What was the significance of your early career Camiel?

Camiel Gielkens: I spent several years as a strategy consultant and then worked for a large multinational. I learned how to analyze, make clear propositions and how to get buy-in from a wide range of people. I'm curious Mads, what did your time at McKinsey bring you?

Mads Brinks: Moving into management consulting with McKinsey opened my eyes to executive communication. The role taught me how to influence at a senior level. I learned what type of arguments, and communication, works and what doesn't. This opened my eyes to employing the correct level of detail in order to persuade business leaders. Also, I came into contact with people who were at a level of seniority to which I aspired. These learnings, as well as studying for my Master's, motivated me to develop my own leadership goals.

You both spent time in the Far East, how influential was that on your professional lives?

Mads Brinks: It was a very special experience for me. 

Camiel Gielkens: Likewise. I worked in China for over a decade and the experience radically altered my business character. Once in China, my learning curve became a hockey stick. When I joined Schouten & Nelissen in China, the organization was entirely Chinese, as was the target audience. The business was hitting a brick wall. I knew I had to do something differently. I started focusing on multinational organizations. And I created diverse teams with multiple nationalities and diverse skills. The impact was clear, in very little time we were growing over 50% a year. That was a massive learning experience which taught me to see matters from many different perspectives, and to be open to difference. Also, in China, everything happens ten times faster than here. I loved that! I learned how to accelerate, keep up high speed and launch new products at scale, and I still strive for that same velocity today. 

Did you apply that new knowledge when you returned to Europe?

Camiel Gielkens: The moment I returned from China to the Netherlands; the pandemic hit the world. Everything stopped for a moment. But then we jumped right into action. We transformed our organization from a traditional face-to-face education provider into a technology-led remote learning organization in a matter of weeks. There was so little time and so much pressure. However, with our whole team we made the transition a success. For a significant part this was due to business techniques I had experienced in China; having a clear goal, experimenting, and scaling up if it works.  

How did working in Laos change your perspective of leadership, Mads?

Mads Brinks: In Laos I learned how to understand context. I initially forged ahead as a manager, unaware that I had failed to gain the trust of the local workforce. It took me a while to learn, for example, that while my meetings in Europe were held to exchange perspectives and reach a collective conclusion, my meetings in Southeast Asia were held to confirm decisions which had been made earlier, during an informal situation before the meeting. My misunderstanding of cultural context led to a huge disconnect in the beginning. I soon learned that in order to be trusted, I had to really ensure all stakeholders truly had buy-in on our plan. I learned a deeper understanding of change management. Also, that without gaining trust, mistrust can be just around the corner.

Camiel Gielkens: "There was an enthusiasm, a heat in the room, which led to an explosion of ideas and the necessary grid to do things differently."

BUILDING STRONG TEAMS

We have touched briefly on both of your respective experiences at building strong teams, lets drill down and explore this aspect of leadership. How do you develop a team, in terms of the individuals? 

Mads Brinks: I think the main difference between the army-style training we spoke of earlier and professional management development, is that we want people to grow on their own terms. We want to empower them to build and boost their strengths. If we are building a team at senior executive level, we are obviously dealing with capable individuals. So, my role is to get these individuals in motion. It's like steering a car. If the car is stationary, it takes a lot of work to turn the wheel, but if the vehicle is in motion, you can steer effectively. Motivating team members is the key to that motion.

Camiel Gielkens: Building strong teams starts with zooming in on the individual. I always look for three things: the first is passion. Does the person really love what they are doing? Then I seek their key strength, as that it is a very effective base to build upon. And finally, I look for their "North Star". What I mean by that is learning where the person ultimately wants to go professionally, so that I can help them get there. From there I support the team by having a clear goal, defining roles and responsibilities, creating an environment where communication open and learning is valued; and celebrate early successes to build confidence. 

What doesn't work in terms of encouraging individual team members?

Mads Brinks: When we get overambitious on their behalf.

Camiel Gielkens: Could you unpack that?

Mads Brinks: I have made this mistake in the past. I became over-confident on a team member's behalf. Only later did I realize I was setting that person up to fail rather than to succeed. If you expect someone to do task A and they also expect to be able to do it, because you assured them that they could, then if they only deliver halfway everyone is disappointed. When we expect team members to have the full range of skills required, yet they are not quite there yet, leaders must be vigilant and not become over-confident on their behalf. I have now learned not to do that.

Let's now look at teams as units, rather than individuals. How can senior executives best lead their teams from base camp to the peak of performance?

Camiel Gielkens: I feel that two elements are particularly important. First is to align the team on the vision, the strategy, and the purpose. Then it's about building confidence that the goal is achievable. So that the team really believes we can get there, we can fly! It's first about connecting both on a rational- and emotional level. 

Mads Brinks: I believe it begins with figuring out the team's identity. Most teams are a mixture of different backgrounds and personality types, and you first have to establish a foundation to build on together. In my team, for example, we are very explicit about never stopping challenging each other, always daring to be bold and never sugarcoat when something gets difficult. That's what we all stand for. That also means if we are not reaching our specified goals, we can look each other in the eyes and say, 'this is not good enough, what do we do?' At that point nobody gets defensive, because we have established the trust which is necessary to be very open and direct on any type of feedback.

How to you create that level of trust in a team from a leadership position?

Mads Brinks: It does take time. And in Europe I would say we start out from a relatively high level of mutual trust when compared with organizations in the US, for example. Having difficult conversations one-to-one before you start is important, to ensure everyone is on board. Then you move on to building the team. At Cloetta, we had a number of sessions which Camiel and Relevance designed for my team and guided us through. These enabled us all to open up about the difficult aspects of the individual and team goals. This required an element of vulnerability. Then, all of a sudden, we realized we'd got each other's backs. Not only because we are a management team which has to run the company, but also because we have built a level of emotional confidence with each other in order to go for it. 

Camiel Gielkens: By establishing team values, you create a sense of identity, belonging and trust. Challenging each other is an important part of establishing this. Every question is right if you give and accept feedback according to team values. Psychological safety is an extremely important aspect for this type of process. Team members must feel valued enough, and safe enough, to say what they really think. One must treat people as equals: as soon as people feel uncomfortable in a team it undermines trust. 

What else can undermine team performance?

Camiel Gielkens: If I look back honestly at my own career, in the past I tended to undermine team performance by micromanaging. I didn't give my team autonomy and I was pushing too much without being open myself. I had to unlearn that bad habit. And while relationships are important, nothing is more important than what you achieve together as a unit. 

What were the highlights when you worked together?

Mads Brinks: There were many, to be honest. But specifically, building our team's awareness for the constant need to develop and challenge ourselves. And realizing that we all still have an awful lot to learn, despite the fact that we have all reached a certain level in our individual careers. This is something which I realized relatively late in life: the more I know, the more I know I don’t know. Working together with Relevance we created a journey of constant improvement. The world outside is developing at lightning speed at the moment. If we sit still, even for a second, it's game over. And at the risk of sounding overly narcissistic, I think the approach that we managed to build together within the leadership course, Camiel, was multi-layered. Thanks to your clear experience in the field, together we developed individual learning, then team learning, but also all worked together on something very specific: our strategy plan.

Camiel Gielkens: I remember during the early sessions, everyone was looking at you, Mads, to take the lead. Later on, that completely shifted. There was an enthusiasm, a heat in the room, which led to an explosion of ideas and the necessary grid to do things differently. We then made matters extremely relevant and urgent by building a plan which set out realistic, achievable, and concrete goals. Reflecting on these sessions, I think we created an atmosphere of constructive conflict. This resulted in a dynamic way of working together while constantly challenging one another at the same time, making the best use of everyone's strengths.

 

Mads Brinks: "If a car is stationary, it takes a lot of work to turn the wheel, but if the vehicle is in motion, you can steer effectively. Motivating team members is the key to creating motion."

HOW DO LEADERS ENCOURAGE FEEDBACK?

How can you as executive leaders, promote honest feedback from your teams on your own performances?

Camiel Gielkens: First ask for feedback, then be very quiet and listen. Then, once the feedback has been given, have a high do-to-say ratio. So: show you listen, value the feedback, and start doing things differently. 

Mads Brinks: This reminds me of a McKinsey value: "the obligation to dissent". That means if there's anything that you see which you think should be done differently, it's not an opportunity to say something, it's not a possibility, it's your obligation to let people know that you see things differently. I believe it triggers people when they see dissent as an obligation, which can lead to better outcomes. However, we as seniors must allow people to feel heard and not shut them down, otherwise this whole idea fails. We must foster dissent.

Camiel Gielkens: For me it is a relief to get good feedback. It means people care, and it can be lonely at the top. Honest feedback enables me to grow.

Mads Brinks: I now know that I can perform in my work, yet still make a lot of mistakes. Because, to quote Mario Andretti, "if you think you are in control, you're definitely not going fast enough". Also, honest feedback from my Cloetta team proves that our organization cares enough about what we are doing to give constructive criticism. I take that as a compliment. 

About Mads Brinks   1994 - Platoon Commander Danish Army 1997 - Studies at Copenhagen Business School 2002 - Starts working at McKinsey 2005 - Starts working at Carlsberg Group 2011 - Moves to Laos for the role of Sales & Marketing Director at Carlsberg Group and later on joins the Lao Brewery Company 2015 - Moves back to Denmark and takes on various roles in FMCG 2020 - Joins Cloetta Denmark as Managing Director Connect with Mads Brinks on LinkedIn